wow, an actual ongoing conversation - and sound advice...
a friends response to my last post;
D~,
No, I stand by my belief that most people feel
disconnected from one another. Perhaps my last email came out sounding
like I was saying to "get over it", but that was not my intent and
sorry if that's how it sounded. We live in a disconnected society
where most people have difficulty finding substantive social
connections amidst work, family, and other obligations, and feel
isolated. Casual conversations, maybe. Genuine connections, no. Why
else do you think so many people go online looking for community? Or
relate to movies like Fight Club, The Matrix, etc.?
I don't doubt all this is compounded and made much more difficult by the isolating quality of depression, which sucks.
I
have a suggestion, and sorry in advance if it offends you, but here
goes. Try communicating more in person as well as online. I was a bit
surprised, after spending so much time chatting with you in person
recently, to find out that I have to read your blog to find out you'd
gone off meds or other significant developments in your life.
When your friends have to read your blog to learn about your
life, it's not an ongoing conversation. It's you writing and us
reading. It's one way, without any exchange, or questions, or
challenges, or suggestions. It's docile. If you tell us about your
life in person, phone, etc., then you have the beginning of a
conversation.
I realize the stuff you write about is very intense to you,
but none of it reads outwardly crazy, and it's often quite interesting
when I can puzzle out what you're writing about, so I hope you'll try
communicating with people more in voice in addition to the blog.
Take care,
~
my response;
Well, I didn't think you meant get over it as much as I felt you meant
"pity but this is just the way it is". Because see, I look you as a
model of what can be. You have both of your parents who you talk to.
You have a life partner that you communicate effectively with. You
speak to your children... all on a regular basis. Which I expect is
really pretty healthy. Whether you actually feel any deep sense of
personal fulfillment or satisfaction, well I guess that is a matter of
personal judgment.
I think the use of online communal tools is the result of an
expansion of global consciousness rather than a device that was created
out of a sense of lack. Sure, there is a shift in where people look for
community now as a result of these new tools, and social consciousness
is growing and expanding as a result of the WWW. But if I want to sit
in a cafe and interact with someone in person I have to do that in the
town I actually live in.
These ideas about communication and isolation were kicking
around in my head this afternoon. Thought of what people that live in
really remote locations that live alone must go through in their
lifetimes to overcome the desire to have personal interaction with
people. Like, people (or individuals) that live in rural Montana (or
other isolative locales) and virtually live their life's alone. The
conversations go on in their (our) heads when there is no one there to
vocalize with. Going into town once a week (month - whatever) is not
enough to create a level of comfort and ease for communication.
I missed your phone calls this afternoon. I had turned my
phone on vibrate when I was at the chiropractor's office and forgot to
turn it back on "loud" when I left. Funny, but another old friend
called this afternoon too, asking me to meet her for coffee tonight. By
the time I listened to the messages you both left my feelings of
social-ability for the day degraded into a pretty strong funk. But I
hit a sort of cross-roads realization today that was a summation of the
earlier thoughts (noted above) and the maturity/devolution of my
attitude about "communication".
Another
experience today compounded this understanding. I drove my mom around
for errands she needed to do this afternoon. When I am with her, and
this happens almost all of the time now (but today flags sort of went
up) I feel this pressure build up inside of wishing that I could talk
to her, wishing that I could tell her what I was thinking about, how I
was feeling, about the things that are really going on in my life -
what I'm enjoying, what I'm struggling with, etc... but I can't. I
can't bring myself to vocalize to her anymore. And I sit there silently
as these burdens mount in pressure inside of me, and it makes me feel
very heavy and sad. This is what I am afraid is happening with me
widespread through all the relationships in my world. That through not
having ongoing conversations, through there not being a constant flow
of energy of talk going on between me and others I fear I'm losing the
ability to talk at all.
An example from this weekend. One of my oldest friends from
high school, I really wanted to talk with him this weekend. His weekend
starts on Thursday night and that is when I usually call him. But when
I called several times this weekend I never got a hold of him and he
only phoned back once when I was in the shower. So we never spoke all
weekend. This happened last weekend too. So what I start to do is
create stories in my head; "Oh, he is mad at me. Or, I'm bothering him
too much." And now, I start to buy into this theory that has been
developing for years now that he really doesn't like me, is afraid of
me, thinks I'm crazy, WHATEVER ~ I'm too much to handle and he's
shutting me down. I've shut people down before that were too intense
for me, so I know people do this.
I'm not sure why I feel insecure about calling you more than I do.
I don't think it has anything to do with you being more educated than I
am as I almost always feel capable of engaging in intellectual
conversations with you. I'm probably not as stimulating a conversant as
you are capable of engaging, but you never make me feel stupid or that
my opinions are not valid. I think the reason I don't call you more
freely is because I know your time obligations fill your plate so
fully.
And
the other thing is that in my lack of a body of ongoing conversations,
I don't have a normal sense flow. Honest to god, I can go days, a week,
or longer without talking with someone on the phone or in person. It's
just become my standard of behavior. And I guess that in the end my
blog rantings are only making me seem more and more like a recluse that
is too difficult to reach, or understand anymore.
Not sure I understand
your remarks about FIGHT CLUB and THE MATRIX in conjunction with need
of community? Re: FIGHT CLUB I understand the need for camaraderie, but
THE MATRIX is about something entirely different. THE MATRIX is about
the individual soul, not the communal soul.
Ok, that was a good run there. I think I said stuff I needed
to say to ground today's understandings. Thanks for opening this up,
and listening.
D~,
No, I stand by my belief that most people feel
disconnected from one another. Perhaps my last email came out sounding
like I was saying to "get over it", but that was not my intent and
sorry if that's how it sounded. We live in a disconnected society
where most people have difficulty finding substantive social
connections amidst work, family, and other obligations, and feel
isolated. Casual conversations, maybe. Genuine connections, no. Why
else do you think so many people go online looking for community? Or
relate to movies like Fight Club, The Matrix, etc.?
I don't doubt all this is compounded and made much more difficult by the isolating quality of depression, which sucks.
I
have a suggestion, and sorry in advance if it offends you, but here
goes. Try communicating more in person as well as online. I was a bit
surprised, after spending so much time chatting with you in person
recently, to find out that I have to read your blog to find out you'd
gone off meds or other significant developments in your life.
When your friends have to read your blog to learn about your
life, it's not an ongoing conversation. It's you writing and us
reading. It's one way, without any exchange, or questions, or
challenges, or suggestions. It's docile. If you tell us about your
life in person, phone, etc., then you have the beginning of a
conversation.
I realize the stuff you write about is very intense to you,
but none of it reads outwardly crazy, and it's often quite interesting
when I can puzzle out what you're writing about, so I hope you'll try
communicating with people more in voice in addition to the blog.
Take care,
~
my response;
Well, I didn't think you meant get over it as much as I felt you meant
"pity but this is just the way it is". Because see, I look you as a
model of what can be. You have both of your parents who you talk to.
You have a life partner that you communicate effectively with. You
speak to your children... all on a regular basis. Which I expect is
really pretty healthy. Whether you actually feel any deep sense of
personal fulfillment or satisfaction, well I guess that is a matter of
personal judgment.
I think the use of online communal tools is the result of an
expansion of global consciousness rather than a device that was created
out of a sense of lack. Sure, there is a shift in where people look for
community now as a result of these new tools, and social consciousness
is growing and expanding as a result of the WWW. But if I want to sit
in a cafe and interact with someone in person I have to do that in the
town I actually live in.
These ideas about communication and isolation were kicking
around in my head this afternoon. Thought of what people that live in
really remote locations that live alone must go through in their
lifetimes to overcome the desire to have personal interaction with
people. Like, people (or individuals) that live in rural Montana (or
other isolative locales) and virtually live their life's alone. The
conversations go on in their (our) heads when there is no one there to
vocalize with. Going into town once a week (month - whatever) is not
enough to create a level of comfort and ease for communication.
I missed your phone calls this afternoon. I had turned my
phone on vibrate when I was at the chiropractor's office and forgot to
turn it back on "loud" when I left. Funny, but another old friend
called this afternoon too, asking me to meet her for coffee tonight. By
the time I listened to the messages you both left my feelings of
social-ability for the day degraded into a pretty strong funk. But I
hit a sort of cross-roads realization today that was a summation of the
earlier thoughts (noted above) and the maturity/devolution of my
attitude about "communication".
Another
experience today compounded this understanding. I drove my mom around
for errands she needed to do this afternoon. When I am with her, and
this happens almost all of the time now (but today flags sort of went
up) I feel this pressure build up inside of wishing that I could talk
to her, wishing that I could tell her what I was thinking about, how I
was feeling, about the things that are really going on in my life -
what I'm enjoying, what I'm struggling with, etc... but I can't. I
can't bring myself to vocalize to her anymore. And I sit there silently
as these burdens mount in pressure inside of me, and it makes me feel
very heavy and sad. This is what I am afraid is happening with me
widespread through all the relationships in my world. That through not
having ongoing conversations, through there not being a constant flow
of energy of talk going on between me and others I fear I'm losing the
ability to talk at all.
An example from this weekend. One of my oldest friends from
high school, I really wanted to talk with him this weekend. His weekend
starts on Thursday night and that is when I usually call him. But when
I called several times this weekend I never got a hold of him and he
only phoned back once when I was in the shower. So we never spoke all
weekend. This happened last weekend too. So what I start to do is
create stories in my head; "Oh, he is mad at me. Or, I'm bothering him
too much." And now, I start to buy into this theory that has been
developing for years now that he really doesn't like me, is afraid of
me, thinks I'm crazy, WHATEVER ~ I'm too much to handle and he's
shutting me down. I've shut people down before that were too intense
for me, so I know people do this.
I'm not sure why I feel insecure about calling you more than I do.
I don't think it has anything to do with you being more educated than I
am as I almost always feel capable of engaging in intellectual
conversations with you. I'm probably not as stimulating a conversant as
you are capable of engaging, but you never make me feel stupid or that
my opinions are not valid. I think the reason I don't call you more
freely is because I know your time obligations fill your plate so
fully.
And
the other thing is that in my lack of a body of ongoing conversations,
I don't have a normal sense flow. Honest to god, I can go days, a week,
or longer without talking with someone on the phone or in person. It's
just become my standard of behavior. And I guess that in the end my
blog rantings are only making me seem more and more like a recluse that
is too difficult to reach, or understand anymore.
Not sure I understand
your remarks about FIGHT CLUB and THE MATRIX in conjunction with need
of community? Re: FIGHT CLUB I understand the need for camaraderie, but
THE MATRIX is about something entirely different. THE MATRIX is about
the individual soul, not the communal soul.
Ok, that was a good run there. I think I said stuff I needed
to say to ground today's understandings. Thanks for opening this up,
and listening.
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